6 comments on “Logic.

  1. –He came through a human because a perfect descendant of Adam was needed for a perfect sacrifice to happen. If he had just come down as his angel-y, glow-y self, he probably couldn’t be killed. And even if he could be, it wouldn’t matter because he wouldn’t have been able to live as a perfect descendant of Adam: a man whose blood (mandatory for a sin-covering sacrifice to God) could save us.

    –The whole time he was on earth, Jesus was telling people who SAW HIM PERFORM THE MIRACLES to have faith in him. CONSTANTLY he emphasized this point, and it holds true for us today. I mean, if God himself comes down in a crashing beam of light for the whole world to see, there’s no faith involved here. You believe in him cause he’s RIGHT THERE. For whatever divine reason, he wants us to believe in him without seeing him, which is what he told Thomas before ascending.

    However, he doesn’t leave us to fend for ourselves in the sea of converging ideas. The sheer specificity of the universe and how it all just happens to operate is, I think, pretty clear evidence; evidence cited in the bible. His existence is not ‘testable,’ but like other things that we know exist but cannot prove, it is undeniable that the universe we live in is extremely intricate and filled with stuff we just don’t understand.

    I think we take that intricacy for granted, which is why we naturally think, ‘You’ve got no proof, Christian.’ But, I think, if you zoom back far enough and look at the universe for what it is, the evidence pretty clear. And there IS evidence. (OT prophecies fulfilling themselves HUNDREDS of years after being written, for example, among other things. [I don’t want to write a book down here.]) If not, you”d be right in saying Christianity is stupid because there WOULD be no reason to think it’s true, which is a trap too many Christians fall into. They reject realities placed right in front of them because of what they have been told to believe. They don’t KNOW the bible’s the truth, and they haven’t searched for FACTS as to why it’s the truth or why something else might be the truth; they just BELIEVE it’s the truth because that’s what they’ve always been told to do.

    –A lot of people get hung up on the “Why does God let bad things happen?” thing. I’m constantly amazed at the failure to answer a question that is so vital and being asked by so many people and is so easy to answer.

    Basically, God allows crap happen because he gives us free will. That answer gets deeper if you dig into it, of course, but that’s the gist of why bad things happen. (Again, not writing a book.) Yeah, God could eliminate sin altogether and make all of us do whatever he wanted us to, but that’s not how he works. He loves all of us on an individual level, no matter how jacked up we are. And he wants us to come to him WILLINGLY, not because we have to. Forced love (in this case, something like cosmic rape) doesn’t mean anything, but if we come to him willingly and have an interpersonal relationship with him, THEN it will mean something.

    –We could go on for days about the Genesis thing, though I and many intelligent Christians see that as a metaphorical truth that correlates with science as opposed to a literal one that I think people just believe because they’re told to.

    –Anyway, you might and probably do have a counterpoint for everything I just said, but I hope that at least you can see that Christianity is not a mess of illogical ramblings. Smarter men than I have written counterpoints to every jab against it, which is why there’s still an ongoing debate.

    I would like to ask, why do you write this stuff? I’m trying to not make that sound jerk-ish, but if you’ve got a life to live, why stay on this topic?

    Thanks for the time, man. God bless–

  2. to live as a perfect descendant of Adam:-

    So you believe in a literal Genesis account, which means you either don’t accept the overwhelming evidence of the Theory of Evolution, or don’t understand it, for it directly contradicts the creation story.

    whatever divine reason, he wants us to believe in him without seeing him, which is what he told Thomas before ascending.-

    I’m sure that as a thinking human being you can see the possibility [if this is false] of this being a cop-out answer that is just there so people would believe without any need of proof or evidence.

    The sheer specificity of the universe and how it all just happens to operate is, I think, pretty clear evidence; evidence cited in the bible-

    A] http://is.gd/mkrHlp
    B] What is this evidence? Is it, possibly, the “sphere of the earth hanging on nothing” [Job 26:7]? Or some other scripture?

    but like other things that we know exist but cannot prove-
    Like what?

    it is undeniable that the universe we live in is extremely intricate and filled with stuff we just don’t understand.-

    But Science and the Scientific Method provides the best tool to figure out how our universe works, and the ability to learn everything about our universe. The bible and christianity do not provide this method of figuring out our universe, for they just attribute all wonderful things to God and all bad things to the Devil.

    And there IS evidence. (OT prophecies fulfilling themselves HUNDREDS of years after being written, for example, among other things. [I don’t want to write a book down here.])-

    See my [Disproving God] post, or look here [ http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Failed_biblical_prophecies ]

    Basically, God allows crap happen because he gives us free will. That answer gets deeper if you dig into it, of course, but that’s the gist of why bad things happen. (Again, not writing a book.) –

    So you’re saying that God allows CHILD RAPE [which he’s present for every single one] to happen because he doesn’t want to infringe on the free will of the rapist? Seems like the child’s free will is being impinged upon to me, he could just teleport the rapist somewhere else, instead of killing him. There are an infinite amount of ways an omnipotent God could deal with something as abhorrent as child rape, yet, nothing. Our free will to believe means nothing if he’s physically there or not. The question will only change from “do you believe in God” to “Do you follow God” if he would show himself. As of right now, you must answer both, he would be simplifying the matter if he did show himself.

    We could go on for days about the Genesis thing, though I and many intelligent Christians see that as a metaphorical truth-

    So Genesis is a metaphorical truth, huh? And here from your first paragraph I thought you were a Genesis literalist. So you’re saying that its not a literal story, which means that it did not actually happen. Therefore Adam and Eve didn’t literally commit the “original sin” [of which God could have just forgiven them for, but that’s too impossible for God] and Jesus died for a metaphorical sin which wasn’t based on reality in the first place. What’s the point of having a perfect descendant of Adam if you believe that the story didn’t actually happen? Without a LITERAL Genesis account, the Jesus account [and all it’s foundational reasonings] is kind of weak.

    I would like to ask, why do you write this stuff? I’m trying to not make that sound jerk-ish, but if you’ve got a life to live, why stay on this topic?-

    I’m the kind of person where I don’t take offense to anything, so you can ask whatever you like in the way that best transfers your current emotion, jerk-ish or not. I’d rather you speak to me in a way that closest resembles how you feel.

    OH and I stay on this topic because until about May of this year I was full-on, Jesus-freakly, 150% non-denominational Christian. I have a penchant for not wasting time and energy. I find out that twenty years of my life were wasted on BS which has no evidence in the first place. That pisses me off quite a bit. I’ve wasted hard-earned [and hard to come by] money and HOURSSSSSS of time… Time I could have been using for constructive things and… I’m not gonna rant to you here, but keep reading \/

    And I’d like to continue to talk to you, for your cordiality is impressive, and it seems you have ability to reason [something lacking in a few of the close friends I have who are christian of some sort]

    • Oh geez. Here goes…

      –I didn’t mean to sound like I believe in a literal Genesis account, because I don’t. I think everything there HAPPENED, but not the exact way it is written. (Science tells us the world was not created in 7 literal days.) [EDIT: The Adam & Eve thing is below]

      –Yeah, I see faith used as a cop-out to searching for actual answers all the time. It’s sad that people will believe because they’re told to as opposed to believing because it’s actually true.

      –I hope I’m interpreting the Dawkins quote right, but he comes in with the assumption that God HAD an origin, which he did not, which is–I hate to give this answer but it’s the only one humans are capable of giving–a concept beyond our understanding. But, if we understood everything about God, he wouldn’t be God.

      The evidence I’m getting at are things like CONSTANT laws of physics that never change, the fact that this tiny little planet in this gigantic universe happens to be just so close/far from one of who-knows-how-many stars to not only sustain life, but intelligent, inquisitive, emotional life; stuff like that that isn’t necessarily mentioned specifically in the bible. (Rom 1:20 puts this point in simple terms.) This was the biggest factor in my search for truth that ultimately lead to Christianity instead of some form of non-theism. It’s cliche, but it simply requires too much faith on my part to believe that all of these things happened/continue to happen by accident.

      –Things we know exist but cannot prove: Things like math, history, memories, dreams, the emotions we feel. (Sorry, probably should have clarified that originally.)

      –The bible doesn’t provide scientific answers because that’s not its intended purpose. It’s a manual, not a textbook.

      One of the bible’s purposes is to tell us what God does. Science’s purpose is to tell us how he does it. [EDIT: Example of that below]

      –I’ll be straight up with you, I’m not an elite Christian apologist and I don’t have an immediate answer to the accusations towards the bible’s prophecies. You could send me links, I could send you counter-links, and on and on it could go.

      I do know that this book has withstood 2000 years of scrutinization, and yet it’s still here, the whole time being studied and relied upon by some of the most intelligent and learned men to ever walk the earth.

      I also know each point regarding the bible has a logical counterpoint. If they did not, the whole thing would have crumbled a long time ago.

      That’s probably not the exact answer you were gunning for, but I think that answers the ultimate question a little more adequately and completely.

      — “So you’re saying that God allows CHILD RAPE [which he’s present for every single one] to happen because he doesn’t want to infringe on the free will of the rapist?”

      Yes. But that’s not the fault of a perfect God, though; it’s the fault of the rapist. Don’t misinterpret this as God not caring about the kid, because he has an unfathomable love for everyone.

      And yeah, he COULD step in, but A) that would be infringing on the rapist’s free will, which God never does and B) that’s similar to the beam of light illustration I laid out. Faith wouldn’t be needed because the guy would know why he went from a back alley to the top of freaking Mt. Everest.

      Man, sometimes I really wish he operated that way and dealt out immediate justice to people like child rapists. It’s our natural inclination to think that he would. But he’s got his reasons (requiring a free-willed faith in him), and i as one man with limited knowledge cannot begin to dare an infinite God to operate otherwise so as to satisfy my need for proof.

      –If he showed himself, everyone would follow him because he’s GOD and we know how seriously he deals out justice. But for his own reasons he puts a premium on those who follow him WITHOUT seeing him. (Jon 20:29)

      –Genesis did actually happen, but not the exact way it was written. If God told Moses exactly what he did, his brain probably would have exploded. Instead, he gives us an allegory. (This is where the bible tells us WHAT God did and where science explains HOW he did it.)

      Adam and Eve happened, which is why Jesus had to come through his family line in order to save everyone that came through his family line. (Rom 5: 12-17 explains this, though I kinda hate how Paul goes off on sort of a tangent in the middle of it.) But you’re right, if I didn’t believe there was a first man and a first woman who brought sin into the world, then Jesus would’ve been pointless.

      As for their original sin, God clearly laid out for those two what he wanted for them and what he didn’t want for them, and they blew it anyway, by their own free will. If they asked for forgiveness (which I’m sure they did later in life), God forgave them. He never withholds forgiveness, which is what makes him so great. But NOWHERE in the bible does it say sin goes without consequences. They might’ve been sorry, but there was still a price to pay, and we’ve all been paying it ever since.

      –I don’t know if I can endure a “war on all fronts” with 10 bulletpoints per comment, but I’m cool with continuing to reason back and forth.

      I do find that cordiality and logic are always lost in this debate. I think too many Christians go a long time in life being taught “Jesus loves me this I know for the bible tells me so” and when someone confronts them with actual facts, they feel threatened and get hostile or just cover their ears an walk away as opposed to making an effort to find out whether what they believe really is the truth or not.

      That’s the incorrect response, of course, but on the flip side, I think non-theists (in general) need to understand that’s where these people are coming from. When they present their ideas, they need to see that they are basically laying siege to a core value of a person that has kept them grounded all their life. They may think they have the answers and want to share them, but they have to be more sensitive when doing so. (I think this might be the sole reason why only such a small percentage of our population consider themselves atheists, despite the fact that it’s almost perfectly logical to be one: people don’t like how they come across.)

      Both sides believe they have the right answer. It is our duty as thinking human beings to hear the other side out and reason as to what is correct and what isn’t. And I’m glad I’ve found someone who can do that cordially.

      Peace–

      • And yeah, he COULD step in, but A) that would be infringing on the rapist’s free will, which God never does and B) that’s similar to the beam of light illustration I laid out. Faith wouldn’t be needed because the guy would know why he went from a back alley to the top of freaking Mt. Everest. –

        But the fact of the matter is, he has meted out immediate judgment in the past for things of a lesser moral nature [non-levite touching the ark of the covenant, I believe]. Also, the rapist is infringing on the freewill of the child here, so God couldn’t care all that much seeing as he witnesses the entire act and is [most importantly] OMNIPOTENT, having the power to come to a resolution in which he can save the child and keep the precious child rapist’s freewill in tact. Omnipotence is the ability to do anything concievable, and a God who’s very nature knows everything possible to know and powerful enough to do anything possible.

        One of the bible’s purposes is to tell us what God does-

        Lev 25-44-46 [44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.]

        in light of Ex 20:20-21 [20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.]

        So what, praytell is the purpose of a [supposedly] all-loving God that states it’s okay to own humans? And beating them can go all the way to the point of them dying, as long as it’s a few days after? I don’t find this to be a loving god, what about the people that are enslaved? Seems like survival of the fittest, not loving God here.

        I’m not an elite Christian apologist-

        I don’t want you to argue bible with me, I want you to think! I don’t care if you are a baby christian of but a few days or a 78 year old christian-from-the-womb. There are things which are said by God in the bible which are deplorable [see above]. There are things in the bible which directly contradict other parts of the bible [which I will get into below]. It does not take an apologist to see that these things are the case. It takes someone who is willing to throw away cognitive dissonance [holding a belief contrary to what you think is right] and see it for what it actually is. If you are opposed to slavery then you should be opposed to the god of the bible. It clearly endorses [and tells how to conduct] slavery. That ALONE should AT THE VERY LEAST [not yelling, just emphasis] cause you to think twice about God being all-loving, causing [again, just basic] doubt on the veracity of the bible, for it is untrue that God is “all-loving” if he endorses slavery. Either he lied about endorsing slavery, or he lied about being all-loving, or the men lied about his existence in the first place and wrote things for people to allow them whatever they wanted. Their god liked what they liked, and disliked who they disliked. Slavery of people they hated? A-OK. Solution for rape of a virgin? Not a supernatural one [restoring her virginity], but marriage to the rapist is the solution [seeming more and more man-made, I hope, or at least casting SOME doubt on the supernaturality of the bible].

        i as one man with limited knowledge cannot begin to dare an infinite God to operate otherwise so as to satisfy my need for proof.-

        1 Tim 2:3-4 [ http://is.gd/jXZBHd ] If this scripture is to be believed, and he knows EXACTLY what is needed to have one person believe [evidence, personal experience, physically showing self to them] but doesn’t do it, then there is a contradiction here. He either doesn’t want this person saved, or he does not know what it takes to get them saved [if the scripture is to be believed].

        But this brings up another contradiction in which he either lied, or is not omnipotent/omniscient, which would mean he still lied, but about different things [his omniscience and omnipotence].

        But then also 2 Tim 3:16 says that ALL Scripture is God-breathed, meaning exactly inspired and directly from his mouth, and therefore inerrant.

        But I’m sure you can see the contradictions clear here, but I’ll list a few for those of a lesser logic or knowledge of the bible:

        1]Bible says all of bible is God’s direct word [2 Tim 3:16]

        2] Bible says God is omniscient [Act 1:24, 1Jn 3:20], omnipresent [Ps 139:7-8, Prv 15:3], and omnipotent [Rv 19:6]

        3]Bible says God wants everyone to be saved [2 Tim 3:16]

        4]Bible says that most people will go to Hell [Mat 7:13]

        [2] states that [3] can only be answered in the affirmative. If a God that is [2] wants something, he gets it [omnipotence], and can do it by a way that satisfies any pre-laid laws [omniscience/see Genesis creation acct]. All he had to do was say something, and it happened. “let my presence be known to man without his free-will being invalidated” seems like a trivial amount of energy used by an infinite god. However, according to [4], [3] in the light of [2] is not the case. God himself [however it is always god himself who says things in the bible according to {1}] want’s something, but cannot attain it because of man, and is therefore not omnipotent.

        –If he showed himself, everyone would follow him because he’s GOD and we know how seriously he deals out justice. But for his own reasons he puts a premium on those who follow him WITHOUT seeing him. (Jon 20:29)

        –Genesis did actually happen, but not the exact way it was written. If God told Moses exactly what he did, his brain probably would have exploded. Instead, he gives us an allegory. (This is where the bible tells us WHAT God did and where science explains HOW he did it.)

        1]Are these Quotes?

        2]I shall answer them anyway:

        Point 1: I’ve already answered that in the form of his omniscience allows him to know of a way in which he could reveal himself to all which wouldn’t infringe on people’s free-will, and his omnipotence allows him to be able to carry out whatever manner it needs to happen in.

        Point 2: 2 Tim 3:16 and the fact that Moses was human just like we are human. God explaining the mannerisms of what he did [he could have told the truth and just said something like “I can say things and they happen”] without going into all the physics [although teaching bronze age tribesmen physics and chemistry {giving his chosen people an advantage in war and showing that they are an omnipotent god’s people more than prophecies which are not 100% accurate ever could} would have been infinitely more impressive and showing of an omniscient god than anything else, revealing knowledge of the universe’s inner workings AS WELL as revealing himself. Also, read this paragraph from a christian website, about Hebrew Grammar:

        “The normal order for a Hebrew narrative sentence is

        Conjunction–Verb–Subject–Object.

        The order in poetic writing is

        Subject–Verb–Object

        — the same as we see it in normal English. The difference is quite obvious in the Hebrew.

        “While the Hebrew language may seem frightening to some, it really is not. The style of writing of Genesis 1 is historical, using the waw-consecutive to express consecutive action (waw = and). Biblical historians use this style to: “express actions, events, or states, which are to be regarded as the temporal or logical sequence of actions, events, or states mentioned immediately before.” (Ref. 7) What this means for Genesis 1 is that God describes a sequence of events that occur one after the other throughout the creation week. We see this sequence reflected in the English as ‘And God said,’ ‘And there was,’ or ‘And it was,’ with which each verse in Genesis I begins. Each occurrence signifies that some action followed another in a real time sequence.” [ E. Kautzsch, Genesius’ Hebrew Grammar, 2nd edition revised by A.E. Cowley (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1910), p. 133.] by James Stambaugh. ICR Impact #251. [http://ldolphin.org/waw.html] {note: the waw-consec doesn’t always imply actions in sequence – it can also be used to expand on an event just mentioned.]. ”

        God forgave them.[…] He never withholds forgiveness […] but there was still a price to pay –

        First, the definition of “forgive”:

        for·give (fr-gv, fôr-)
        v. for·gave (-gv), for·giv·en (-gvn), for·giv·ing, for·gives
        v.tr.
        1. To excuse for a fault or an offense; pardon.
        2. To renounce anger or resentment against.
        3. To absolve from payment of (a debt, for example).

        The entire old testament is about using animal sacrifices [which were done in many different religions] to “cover up” their sin until the “perfect sacrifice” could come along and fully “take away” and “erase” sins. There is only forgiveness of sins in Jesus. Biblically speaking, nobody was forgiven until Jesus came along, their sin was covered up by the things they did [sacrifices, faith, living righteously, but mostly faith in God {see Abraham in Hebrews 11}]

        I believe that those are all the points I wished to answer in your response, and all the other points should be answered in the responses to the points I have copied herein.

        I do believe that the logical points I laid out do make sense, for even I [who was a christian] see the logic from the other side [of christianity] which is why I constantly say “should cast basic doubt”… It is because one point wasn’t enough for me to do away with God, it took many points together, both biblically and scientifically to come to the conclusion that I have come to.

        I also am glad that this can continue cordially and thoroughly enjoy typing up responses to yours.

        Knowledge and awesomeness~

      • It depends on if your answers have evidence to back them up. If you prove me wrong, I have no problem accepting things that are based on reality. If, however your answers are baseless claims which are unsubstantiated and unverifiable, then my mind won’t change.

        Don’t get me wrong, I’d love to be proven wrong. I’d love if there were any type of afterlife at all, even if it’s something like a lucid dream-like state. If it’s able to be PROVEN, I’d accept anything evidence based ^.^

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